Not Smoking

So is the overseriousness over now?

When hideous monster is involved the seriousness is never gone

Glad to contribute.

Silthilar, my argument doesn't depend on comparing this pollutant to that, it depends on the dangers of government dependence, and respect for the privacy of business-owners. I'm not arguing that smoke is good for you, I stay away from people when they are smoking myself. I don't like being around it. I'm simply saying that second-hand smoke is less of a danger than the growing number of laws we are emposing on ourselves. If you convince your government that you want them to tell you what you can and can't do, one day it might decide that you don't want your constitutional rights anymore, and because of the legal restrictions our society was so willing to adopt, it will be more difficult to convince those who work for the government that you don't like the direction it has gone. You may actually instil pride in the government for their tyranny, convincing them that they're doing what's best for us. By then, it may be too late for us to do anything about it. We may one day actually find ourselves praying for some global climatalogical catastrophy to ruin our government's infrastructure. I'm not saying all of this just to argue. I'm saying it because even I have voted for things in the past, that I look back and wish I hadn't voted for. The government is getting too big, and too intrusive, and I just think that it's time to turn things around. Restrict the government for a change.

the smell gives me a headache and makes me sick! lol

I agree with you about tyranny being bad and all that, but all told, I think you're overreacting just a bit.  For one thing, you're assuming that government is inherently corrupt and will try to wrest free will and all that from us while staying under our radar.  I disagree with that, namely in that individual administrations typically don't last that long.  Also, the safeguards the founding fathers put in place to protect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are nearly impenetrable.  Only one amendment (the 18th) has ever been repealed in the 200+ years the Constitution has been in place, and that was because it a) obviously wasn't working and b) was hurting the economy.  The Bill of Rights is not going to be taken away.   I've read Animal Farm and Farenheit 451 and all, but prohibiting an unhealthy practice in public places is in no way threatening that sort of situation.  Government is not always synonymous with tyranny.

Thank you, Silthilar. The voice of reason.

Thanks, Nomi.  I do my best.

Assuming the government is inherrently currupt? Nearly impenetrable safeguards? I hold in my hand at this very moment, a copy of James Madison's notes of the debates in the Federal Convention which formed those safeguards. Benjamin Franklin himself stated during the meeting about the government they were about to spawn "that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it..." Franklin had grown tired of the debates, and had decided that as perfect of a government as they had designed, it still was not perfect enough to prevent inevitable curruption, and despotism, and was convinced that designing such a government was impossible for them, so they might as well sign it anyway. In other words, you have more faith in the government they designed, than even they did.

They are sliding oppression under the radar. There are countless examples of this. Did you know the Federal Reserve, which prints our money is owned, operated, and controled by private banks? It's been that way since the 1910s. Thomas Jefferson himself once said "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."  That's just one example. I won't even go into "Immenant Domain" abuse, the Patriot Act, the insults to the Constitution from lips of Supreme Court Justices, etc, etc, etc... Even certain presidential candidates are banned from debates, because they are popular in the polls, but aren't easy enough to bribe or blackmail. The only ballots that matter in this country anymore display dead presidents on them.

The bottom line is that you have more faith in your constitution than did the very men who framed it. You say there is no freedom being removed under the radar, but I see no evidence that you're even paying attention to anything other than the radar the government, the banks, and the major media networks are providing for you.  

You want to tell me smoking is bad?  Okay. I agree. But should it be illegal? No Sir. You say I'm "overreacting" by opposing such restrictions, but you don't even notice that in essence, I'm very delibrately not reacting.  It is you who are reacting to something by calling for its ellimination by power of law. Government is by its very nature the ultimate fruit of human fear. It's good at two things: threatening or forcefully removing life, liberty, and property. Every action the government takes, and every "service" it provides requires at least one of those two actions. Funding always comes from taxation, for example. And because the people opperating the government require payment as well, the government's beneficial output will always be smaller than its forced input.

Touche.

I'm well aware of the Patriot Act etc, a consequence of 9/11.  As much as it represents a misuse of government power, how long do you think it will last after Bush leaves office and the war in Iraq ends?  I think you underestimate the power and ability of the people.  Between 2004 and 2005, the percentage of citizens who thought that the Patriot Act had gone too far doubled, and between 05 and 06 the percentage who had become informed about the Act also doubled.  If you look back in history, you'll note a marked swing between liberal and conservative administrations and legislatures, back and forth.  How long do you think the conservative legislature passed under the Bush administration will last with a Democratic majority in Congress?  Also, when Bush passed the Patriot Act, as with the rest of his term until recently, he had a rubber-stamp Congress.

All this talk of corruption is quite a red herring: you still haven't given any evidence that banning an obviously harmful activity will help bring about the sort of 'oppression' you say it will.  It brings no good to society at all, quite the opposite.  Even if our civil liberties are in danger, how will illegalizing smoking in public places further the evil government's cause?  I've heard the whole trickle-down corruption thing - taking liberty one little step at a time - but is smoking in public a liberty?  If you ask me, it's only marginally more qualified than assault.  Do you think that people are relying on government too much because the government illegalized theft, rape, murder, underaged drinking and smoking, drug use, etc?

Believe it or not, there is no Federal law prohibiting murder. At least not the murder of people who aren't government employees. And it's not the prohibition of smoking that concerns me. It's the pattern and habit of prohibiting behavior legislatively that needs to be avoided. I also think most legal restrictions are unecessary, including a ban on smoking in public. Smoking first or second hand is a health threat, not a life threat. A distinction should certainly be made between something that deminish a person's health over a period of decades, given repeated exposure, and something that can kill a person quickly, with one dose. It's literally like saying "cigarettes ended my life because of that one, single, entire life I spent smoking them." Because of this distiction, I consider smoking prohibition anything but a necessary law, and any law that is not necessary has no place in a government that waves a flag of liberty. Besides this, I think repealing most of the laws we do have is of a much higher priority than making new ones.

I think I start to see your point of view.  (the "anarchist" thing on your profile helped)

Having made my point, I can't think of anything else to say.  Anyone else?

Oh yes. I'm an anarchist. I like to put things in perspective. The universe around us hides its brilliance in plain sight. Chaos engineered all of this. When I decided to entrust my environment with my fate, government seemed much more silly of an idea.

I smoked for about two months. Nothing great about it, it's just addictive, and once I got rid of it, I couldn't figure out why I had to smoke!

Freedom. 

congrats! 

Ive never smoked in my entire life, never plan on giving it a try.

You have my permission to marry me.

haha I have to say that was cute

can i marry you, hideous monster?

Yeah, but you have some guy fused to your head.  That shit ain't sexy. Silthilar can marry me though… He's a dragon, strattling a lightning rod, and some how bares a striking resemblance to the face of Jesus Christ, if you squit your eyes a bit. Everybody needs Jesus in them.

whoa.  that's trippy.  so you mean all this time i've been advocating christianity and not even knowing it?

It does sort of look like Jesus! How weird….

Thank you, Silthilar.

huh?  (looks up the list of comments)  oh, okay.  you're quite welcome.

wow so I keep squinting at silth's picture but i do not see jesus… but whatever now to get back on subject haha, I've never smoked but I have drunk/drank (i never know which to use they both sound wrong)

Yeah, they say drinking affects/effects your ability to obey grammatical rules. By the way, I can honestly say that I've never been drinkafied.

I either!

I don't agree with people that smoke around people that don't wish to have the smoke entering their lungs, but i don't agree with abolishing smoking.

i don't smoke around other people, unless these people happen to be smoking also, i don't do it to make me seem "cool" so i am quite reserved with it.

I like panda's approach.

On a related note, studies show that it takes the equivilant of only seven cigarettes per month for children to start showing signs of dependence. To be honest, I don't understand why parents continue to smoke. I will never marry nor date a smoker for as long as I live. I would consider it an insult to all of my ancestors, and the sacrifices they made so that I could exist. I've heard the most idiotic excuses for continuing to smoke: "My job is too stressful." "People keep offering cigarettes." "When they reach this particular price, then I'll quit." "I act like a bitch if I don't smoke." Basically, what it all amounts to is "I won't quit, because it would require will power." That's the only excuse. I doubt that anything short of some kind of massive spiritual enlightenment will be enough to bring a final end to this terrible vice.

I guess non smokers are more prone to getting lung disease when around second hand smoke because they don't exhale all of the smoke. It just sticks to the lungs,etc.

I know that this is considered just another excuse but i grew up around smokers and it comforts me.

That's not an excuse. It's a symptom of dependence. Why does clean air make you uncomfortable?

Clean air doesn't bother me... it's just that i like the smell of smoke... and i like the feeling of it entering my lungs... i feel secure... and i know about all the tar and crap but i don't really care.

But you do care. If you didn't care, you wouldn't put forth money and effort to inhale it regularly.

It is quite expensive... but it makes me feel good. i can understand people not liking it though i dunno.

I am a thrill seeker of a rare type. I find excitement in depriving myself of the things I unneccesarily crave, and then carefully monitoring the way my mind reacts and adjusts to the change, over a long period of time. You can really learn a lot about how severely simple things influence the human mind, just by noticing how your thoughts change when you don't have them. And you would be surprised to understand how much they really did matter all along. I can relate to the comfort smoking brings you, but only in comparison to very different things.

Yes… i used to try to keep myself from doing certain things like eating more than 3 meals in a day and i have absolutely no self control… that is why i only drink with my parents or people i know will keep me out of trouble.

Intoxication is another passtime which I've never understood. Personally, I refuse to be a designated driver for people who voluntarily get themselves drunk, because I feel that everyone deserves any and all consequences their own behavior and decisions bring about, no matter how wonderful or horrid those are. Protecting them from themselves is no more my business than it is to help them harm themselves.

I have never been drunk but buzzed i guess they call it.

Did you enjoy it?

The book or the smoke? I enjoyed them both.

The "buzz." 

Yeah i enjoyed the buzz… it made me feel numb and quite happy, probably the happiest i have ever felt.

Wow. Chemically induced happiness. Now that's the way to live.

You think i like the fact the it takes guys or alcohol to make me happy? I really don't i wish i could just be naive and happy.

Naive? Is that what people are, who find happiness in other things?  I'm not judging.  I'm just saying, life would be simpler, if I just used some kind of magic potion to make me happier. Instead, I insist on experimenting with the strength of my own will power, with no motivation but curiosity.

happy people aren't always naive… but naive people usually are happy. In my opinion. I thought i was happy when i was naive.

yeah, there's a lot of truth in that ignorance is bliss thing…but i'm a lot happier being mentally active than i am being mindless